Ben Shapiro and I Talk Political De-escalation
About this episode
Days before Charlie Kirk's murder, Klein taped this conversation with conservative commentator Ben Shapiro about his new book 'Lions and Scavengers.' Shapiro divides society into 'Lions' — builders who create civilization — and 'Scavengers,' driven by envy, who tear it down; he and Klein spar over whether campus protest movements and the post-October 7 left fit that frame. They debate Shapiro's defense of Western civilization as rooted in biblical morality and Greek reason, his evolution from the Obama years through Trump (including a frank reckoning with birtherism), and where he breaks with the current administration: immigration enforcement that crosses from law enforcement into cruelty, and the centralization of executive power. They find surprising agreement on subsidiarity and localism, and trade nightmare scenarios about unchecked power on both sides.